10Q – Matt Brandon
[March 5, 2010] Welcome to 10.Q series. This section features interviews to humanitarian photographers, their work and photography for non-profit organizations.
This week 10.Q features Matt Brandon from The Digital Trekker a Malaysia based humanitarian and world/travel photographer.
1. Tell us about you and your photography. What kinds of shooting have you done? Have you worked for any humanitarian organizations/magazines etc.? Could you name any current or former clients?
Thank you Heber for this opportunity. My photography is mostly people and culture oriented. I’ve toyed with different names to describe it like, ethno-photography, or cultural photography or even world photography. But when it all comes down to it, I’m basically a travel photographer that focuses on humanitarian issues and my clients tend to be humanitarian organizations or NGOs. I have shot for magazines and commercial clients, though, that is not my source of bread-and-butter. In fact quite frankly it’s difficult to get enough butter for my bread these days. I also like to teach, and as a result I do two or three workshops a year and that helps pay the bills.
My images tend to focus on people and their environment. I like to break down stereotypes. One of the biggest things that I’ve seen living abroad is, most cultures, if not all cultures tend to be ethnocentric. We view the world through our own rose-colored glasses. One of my goals is to help break down those barriers and stereotypes so people can see other people for who they really are, not who we think they are, or who we are told they are.
© Matt Brandon | www.thedigitaltrekker.com
2. We all know that you don’t get into humanitarian photography to become rich, so what does humanitarian photography mean to you? What’s your vision for it?
I guess I’ve answered this question above. I love working with humanitarian organizations because they share many of the same values that I have. They have compassion and respect for people that want to help. This is something I’d like to be able to do with my images, as well as aid these organizations in telling their story so they can be more effective in their work. If you can’t tell your story then you can’t raise money. If you can’t raise money, then you can’t run a business and help people.
3. How did you get into humanitarian photography? Where did you get the idea to shoot these kinds of people and groups?
I didn’t really, “get into” humanitarian photography. It’s sort of developed up around me. I was already living in India running tours and treks and was already taking the kind of photos that a lot of these organizations need. People saw them on the net or on forums. Soon organizations started contacting me and asking me to shoot for them. The problem was, much of those requests were for pro-bono work. Even today I get more requests for pro-bono than anything else.
4. What are the challenges of shooting for NGO’s or non- profit organizations?
I think as I hinted to above, the biggest challenge is actually getting the client that is willing to pay. I feel that many, if not most NGOs or humanitarian organizations don’t understand the true value of an image. And as a result they don’t place a monetary value on the services that might deliver those images. When times get tough, as they are now, they cut budgets. Often the budget line item that might have photography in it is one of the first ones that gets axed. So the biggest challenge for me over the years has been finding ways to make these NGOs understand and appreciate the value of the image and the photographer.
Sort of a backdoor approach to fight this has been my ability to teach the NGO how to gain their own images via their own workers. It’s an approach that is much like their analogy of “you teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Versus giving him a fish and feeding him for the day.” The idea is to raise up their own workers to be able to help gain images that they can use to tell their stories. But what happens, is as a by-product, they learn the value of the image. Maybe even begin to see the need on occasion to spend the money and pay for the professional photographer.
Another challenge I have, related to this, is the new photographer working in or wanting to work in humanitarian photography. They often offer their services for free and end up damaging the marketplace for themselves and the rest of us in the long run.
© Matt Brandon | www.thedigitaltrekker.com
5. How much do you travel every year? How do you manage your family time?
Not a lot compared to many other photographers. Maybe 2 to 3 months out of the year total. It does affect my family and of course that’s not a good thing. One of the things I’ve been trying to do is to find ways to bring them along. When my daughter was young, we home-schooled and oftentimes my wife and daughter would come with me on assignments. These days my daughter is in school here in Penang and it makes traveling together more difficult. But in the summertime I still like to take my wife and daughter with me. Alou, my wife is a great aid in logistics and organization and can handle money well. Those are three areas that I’m not very gifted in and every photographer needs.
6. Who’s been an inspiration for your photography? How do you stay inspired?
Do you read blogs? If so, which ones would you recommend?
Influence versus inspiration. I think I’ve been influenced most by a several National Geographic photographers like Steve McCurry. My inspiration comes these days from my friends and colleagues. People like David duChemin, Gavin Gough, Ami Vitale and others. These are people that are both extremely talented and share my values. You can not look at their images and not be inspired.
As far as blogs go, I have a host that I look at but only a handful that I actually read daily. The pixelated images the first. David’s blog is like an online classroom extremely helpful. A humanitarian photographer, or any photographer for that matter, would be crazy not to put that on their main list of blogs to read. I read other blogs that are not photographic related blogs, like Seth Godin and Garr Reynolds’ Presentation Zen blog.
© Matt Brandon | www.thedigitaltrekker.com
7. How do you normally approach people from other cultures? What are your limits at the moment of shooting people in need, or in a complicated situation?
When I’m photographing people from other cultures I tried to be as respectful as I can. Often, though not always, I asked someone if I can take their photograph before I snapped the picture. If they say no, I continue walking. Very rarely however, do people actually refused to let you take their photograph. It takes a lot of guts to walk up to a complete stranger and ask them to let you take their photo. I get asked this question a lot, in fact I’ve written several blog posts about it. You can find them HERE and HERE as well as HERE.
© Matt Brandon | www.thedigitaltrekker.com
8. How do you promote your work?
I don’t do a lot of self-promotion outside of my blog, Facebook and Twitter. I have done some direct mail to NGOs and a few phone calls. But none of that seems to carry as much weight as recommendations from clients who are happy. I truly believe the effectiveness of social media is yet to be seen. I’m not sure the time spent on it , hourly wage, it would be worth it. But then I admit maybe I’m not doing it right or the most effective way.
9. Tell us about the last piece of gear that you deemed important enough to buy. How about the one that’s been most important in your career? (It can be a lens, camera, accessory, etc.)
Well, the 5D Mark II body has been one of the best investments I’ve made along the way. The images are amazing and the full frame of the camera gives you what you expect from the lens.
10. What would be your advice for a photographer who is just starting out in this field?
I think, the best advice I can give a new photographer in this field is develop perseverance and be aware of your motivation. Keep at it, as my Dad used to say, “Illegitimi non carborundum” or “Don’t let the bastards grind you down”. Times will get tough and you will want to quit. If you do, well, that is it. You will never know what could have been. This is a really tough business and it takes a lot of perseverance to survive. As you said, you’ll never be rich of this. So in your perseverance, look at what your motivation is. Is it fame? Is it monetary rewards? Or is it knowing that you’re helping people less fortunate than you? If it’s the latter, then perhaps you’ll see some success and in fact you might even obtain a small amount of fame and monetary award. But if it’s the others, then you wear down and eventually come to the point of saying,” I’ve had enough.”
Great start to the blog and series in general. I’m looking forward to seeing this grow.
Thanks Craig for the support.
Great Photography, blog and initiative. Congratulations!
By the way, big fan of Matt too.
Como no sabia de ti, me causa una gran sorpresa el saber a que te dedicas, tienes un gran trabajo que llena el espiritu y hace abrirse a los demás. Te felicito amigo Heber.
Gracias Roberto,
A mi también me da gusto saber de ti. Solo para que sepas estoy planificando llevar este blog al español, para que nuestra gente también se entere de estas cosas.
Congratulations on the new site. It looks wonderful. Maybe you have more readers than you know what to do with. I am honored to be your first interview.
[...] I was privileged to be the first of the series. For what it is worth you can find my interview HERE. Be sure and drop by Heber’s site and say hello. Now is not the time to lurk, now is the time [...]
Heber,
Great blog and interview! Thanks for bringing us in on the discussion. The bulk of my reply is to Matt – so maybe he can respond.
Matt, I think there may be truth when you say “many, if not most NGOs or humanitarian organizations don’t understand the true value of an image.” But I’m not sure it’s as cut/dry, black/white as your quote makes it seem. I think the more developed answer – as someone working in an NGO on the fundraising/marketing side of things – is something like this:
Many NGOs don’t necessarily know what to DO with an image that they value immensely so that it will bring about a monetary return that will justify having spent hard-earned donor dollars on the photographer/image.
From the shoes I’ve walked in and the organizations with whom I’ve worked, it could come off condescending to say “many, if not most” don’t understand the true value of an image. Of course we understand the true value of the image. We are the ones living this stuff out every day. We desperately want others to see what we see. And we know that can only happen through imagery.
So I don’t think the obstacle is our inherent obtuseness or ignorance to the value of an image.
The obstacle for “many, if not most” – in my limited experience – is more nuanced and has to do with not knowing how to leverage a phenomenal photo into funding for the people we exist to serve. Many organizations have great photos on their hard drives. Big deal. If an NGO doesn’t have someone dedicated to marshaling photographic fodder into a targeted message and call to action, then the NGO is no better off for having paid for (or simply snapped themselves) the highly impactful photo.
“If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?”
So let me go out on a limb here for this photographic community. If you want smaller NGOs to pay for your services as a photographer, I’d guess many, if not most would be more willing to invest in the photographer who can help us take the beautiful image after all is said and done and leverage that photo into funding. The photog with the biggest social network, direct mail list, blog following, and the best strategies to help me do that is the photog who gets my organizational money.
Is that your job? That depends. That’s your call. But most of us spending NGO money know our limits. We know that your photography is valuable. But we don’t always have the skill to do something of value with your beautiful photo. And a beautiful photo on an otherwise ugly website, pamphlet, newsletter, or mail out is a waste of money.
So the hesitation to spend it not because we don’t value beautiful photography. The hesitation is because so many of us don’t know how to convert on beautiful photography.
In short, most understaffed NGOs need you as more than a photographer. They need a media producer/media consultant for hire. In today’s media saturated world, “the value of an image” is too small a discussion; and it’s too esoteric.
NGOs need people to help us conceive and implement strategies and cross-promotional opportunities. Create a media package for me that guarantees X Tweets during the course of our time together, FB group email promotional blasts, email newsletter blasts, blog posts, advertising space on your website for ___ days, and direct mail mentions and you take the pressure of me of spending donor money in a way that would not only fail to move us forward, but just might set us back.
Again, is that your job? That’s your decision. But the first photographers that seize the opportunity to be more than photographers (because all of you are great at selling yourselves anyway) will be the first photographers that find an organization like the Preemptive Love Coalition willing to risk it – not just for the valuable image, but for the marketing/distribution plan as well.
Heber and Matt, thanks for the interview. I look forward to more 10Q; and to hopefully working together more with both of you toward more integrated photographic conversion strategies – not because that is your job, but because it’s our need for those who want to capitalize on it.
Sincerely,
Jeremy Courtney
Jeremy,
Thank you for letting us know the other side of the story, believe it or not, I was already working on a 10.Q interview but for NGO’s CEOs. As a humanitarian worker, representing and leading a team on the field, I also understand your position about the role of photography in your work and I share the same challenges as well.
I’m glad about your comment, this is the type of discussion that I want to see among NGOs and Photographers.
Jeremy, I will use this comment for a new post that I’m working on.
I also want to encourage other photographers, to send us questions that you may have for NGOs or Non-Profits. I will be contacting some of them in a near future to generate this kind of discussions.
Heber,
I dig the new blog! I look forward to answering the questions you send me about cultural photography, too!
Bringing in others through interviews is brilliant…
Jeremy, you’ve got my gears turning now… don’t be surprised if IGVP (www.visualpeacemakers.org) crafts some joint strategy with it’s members to create the kind of marketing service for NGOs that you’re talking about. I think when we launch our official site–in all it’s glory–we will have the tool for photographers to add this service almost effortlessly on their part. I’ll certainly run it by you when I draft something.
I’m also looking forward to see the new IGVP site come along.
We can have a special 10.Q edition when the opening comes, that way you got explain us what IGVP is for.
Thanks.
Heber, I discovered your blog today from a retweet on Twitter. You published some interesting articles, I’ll certainly delve deeper into your site!
As I also like to work with ngo’s and humanitarian organizations in the future, I have to admit that Jeremy’s answer gave me a different insight into the issue of “they don’t understand the true value of an image”. We must hear the stories on both sides, so I’m definitely looking forward to your upcoming interviews with NGO CEO’s.
Hi Serge,
Thanks for the comment. I encourage you to send me an email if you want to ask more questions to NGOs.
I’m also learning from what Jeremy said.
I certainly will later this week.
This is a good post and a very swish website.
As a graduate for a year, the catch 22 situation has also had its effects. I have to shoot a lot of work for free for various NGO’s just so I can get together a portfolio…this in turn reflects what Matt was saying about his future work comes from ‘word of mouth’. I hope so…in fact I bloody pray so. Due to me being economically in a recession since university myself, I have had to mainly use social media to approach NGO’s (I don’t seem to like emailing anymore – and realising some potential from Twitter and Facebook).
I have also been following a lot of third sector media companies and paying a lot of attention to their internal work – as their push for a piece of the social media pie is getting bigger and bigger. So with that I may or may not get a first paid assignment in NGO humanitarian photography.
Thanks Stephen,
As I already said it, I’m about to start interviewing people from Non-Profits organizations… hopefully on behalf of some of you, so please send questions that you want to ask to them.
JCourt, Heber, Matt,
Whew. Lot’s of thoughts there about the value of a photograph.
I’ve thought about JCourt’s comments for a while now and think I feel ready to respond. I’ve tried to make this response somewhat coherent but, dang it, the brain is on hour 14 of an already too long day. Thanks again for your comment JCourt – I loved reading it.
Just to give you some background as to where I’m coming from – I spent the better part of the last 5 years working with and for NGO’s – mostly in a creative roll. Where I live now (Western China), there was one point when I was surrounded by NGOs. I’ve worked directly for and with NGOs trying to communicate specific messages through pictures and video.
As a photographer working, running a photography business, and teaching photography in a once rich NGO environment where needs STILL exist I find this conversation more than amusing – maybe necessary.
If I may, I want to point out a few things on both sides of this question – all of which are just observations.
I have to agree and disagree with both Matt and Jcourt. Firstly, we are discussing the VALUE of a photograph. Jcourt – man, I totally understand, and agree on so many levels, with what you are saying when you correlate the value of a photograph with the amount of change (monetary, volunteer, etc) it can cause. Simply put: If the amount of money picture X brings in minus the cost for picture X is greater than zero, the whole venture was worth it. I’ve been there first hand and not just as someone looking in from the outside. NGOs operating in the red help no one. An NGO could value the heck out of its phto library and still not have the money to do something about it. I’ll touch on marketing vs. picture value in a bit
All that being said, most NGO’s don’t have a line item for photography though they might have a category that encompasses that. I’d have to agree with Matt on the large that most NGO’s *that I’ve experienced* do NOT understand the value of a series of professional photographs in support of their cause. How can I say that with a certain amount of conviction? Let’s go there…
Firstly, let’s put things in perspective. We are a bunch of NGO folk AND photographers talking about the value of a photograph to an NGO. By us even posting on this blog I must assume that we do understand the value of a photograph, have been deeply effected by photographs, and have seen visual imagery DO amazing things. I also have to also say that I’ve worked on projects that were for the purpose marketing images whose purpose was to raise awareness for certain NGOs and I can honestly say, across the board, these projects have been DEEPLY underfunded.
Now that is someone saying that the marketing behind the picture plus the picture plus the reach the NGO has will not be enough to justify the whole effort. That’s either NGO staffer saying “This is more money out than it is in.” or it’s someone saying “This is not our primary focus.” I think the point here is that someone with a vision for the value of a photograph (what a sentence THAT is…) will see that a picture has more value that JUST its income potential, but beyond that, they will also SEE it’s income potential – and I think thats Matt’s point.
To agree with you, JCourt, it sure isn’t black in white when you dig into it, is it? Nothing really ever is once you get out the shovel. I’m sure glad you brought that up.
You as a photographer and an NGO worker know the value of a picture. I understand that. You and I are not most NGOs nor are we most NGO workers – which I think is a good thing.
One thought I had is that the vision for marketing a picture only comes after the value of the picture is realized. We know, as you pointed out, that marketing the picture is often underfunded. How so? People pay for what they don’t know how to do generally.
Furthermore, I believe that people PAY for what they value. The build it into the budget. I have a budgeted savings for my wife, camera gear, travel, food… all things I value (food being imported stuff, not just… you know… food). My bottom line on this is this:
People pay for what they value – and NGOs, in general, don’t pay for that.
Why? Because they don’t see the value of the picture after it’s come out the back side of a marketing campaign.
On the flip side of that oddly shaped coin is that fact that NO MONEY IS NO MONEY. Like I said earlier – value the heck out of something like this, but not having money to do something about it is just that – having no money to do something about it. Thats where the black and white mix and become gray, like you’ve suggested JCourt.
To close (about time, yeah?), Matt’s comment was about NGO’s not knowing/understanding the value of a photo. I truly believe thats a correct statement – but that issue certainly isn’t black and white.
Such an interesting subject, thanks for bringing it up!
Brian
Thanks Brian for you input on this… BTW, you got a great blog! I’m loving it.
Heber, Congrats on the new site and wonderful interview.
Heber (and Matt), great job on the first interview. As a photographer who is transitioning my focus toward humanitarian and world photography, I’m excited to come across resources such as this one. Your interview series will be a valuable part of my continued growth process as I learn how to better serve organizations and people around the world. Thanks for putting this together, and keep up the good work!
D. Shuan-Luoi,
I’m glad to hear your impressions on this interview. Next thursday I will be explaining what’s coming for the 10.Q Series and how you and others can collaborate to it. Please check that post.
Nice to see the way things are shaping up here, Heber! If you’re getting discussion this rich right from the start, I look forward to what is ahead!
Peace
Erin,
Thanks Erin,
I’m also really happy with the discussion over here… that’s what i’m hoping for this site.
Peace.
Heber, an enjoyable read for sure. Thanks, Matt, for your insights.
Matt, I just reflected on these questions myself and have a different take on your “new photographer working in or wanting to work in humanitarian photography” who “often offer their services for free and end up damaging the marketplace for themselves and the rest of us in the long run”.
I don’t know what it is like on your side of things, as someone who IS trying to make it by your photography for NGOs. I don’t get my money from photography and feel like I AM a photographer in the camp of someone trying to offer my services for free (I’m happy to get paid, but don’t expect it of many of these smalltime NGOs).
For myself, I want the experience as it is valuable learning fodder. It’s a self-imposed internship of sorts. I am bummed that I may be ruining it for the rest of us, but I don’t see there being that many photogs with the desire to do what we do.
Anyway, keep up the great work.
Tim,
Thank you, I’m going to send this comment to Matt and see what he says… so keep an eye on this.
Looking forward to read you interview.
Tim, I think that is a good way to look at it: an unpaid internship. I am not saying, you should never do pro bono work. I’ve done it myself. However, I do think you need to put limits on. At some point it will be frustrating for you and for your client. Your client will be asking demands of you; additional images, broader usage and rights. Soon you will be feeling the pressure and will have nothing to show for it financially. Clients that use pro bono work have very little wiggle room as well. It is hard for them to be demanding on a volunteer. Often times, (I am not saying you) volunteers do not give 100%, so the client get what they paid for, so to speak. Over all it is not a good place to live in, even if you are not doing it for a living. By the way, it is proven people value things they pay for over things they get handed for free. Ask any NGO
Jeremy, I appreciate your response. I am not sure I buy it totally, but it did give me a lot to think about and ponder. One thing I think you say and do it eloquently, as always, is that photographers need to keep thinking out of the box and add more services to our offerings. I think this is true. This is why I was just in Iraq with you, Heber and the others; teaching your teams to find their images your self and make your own multimedia presentations, don’t wait for the so-called pro to do this.
But I still believe, and I think you sort of proved my point, that often NGOs (not all) do not value the strength of the image. By the mere fact as you stated, that NGOs do not know what to DO with the images, shows me they don’t value them. Maybe because they haven’t seen the value of what it can produce for them–maybe it is because they don’t know how to turn it into funds. Let me explain it like this; if I have a costly camera and have no earthy idea how to use it and just keep it on my shelf, then I don’t value it for what it can do. If I truly valued the camera I would read up on how to use it and make it pay for itself. But the reality is if while going into it, I don’t know how to use it, not see it’s potential, then I don’t value it and would never buy it in the first place. This is where I see many NGOs. We tell them that the power of the image is amazing, but it is just words. They need to be shown the power so they might value it. This is where I feel we fail in marketing ourselves as photographers. We need to learn to cultivate a respect and appreciation of the image. It is what I see as the fundamental difference in what I refer to as ” inside sales” versus “outside sales”. Inside sales people come to us and ask for something. They already know what they want, it’s just a matter of finding the right image. Outside sales is where we find the client and try to sell them on product. They don’t see a need and it is up to us to develop that vision for the need.
Jeremy, I think that you have to be careful to not confuse popularity with reach. You say that the photog with the biggest social network … is the photog who gets your organizational money. In that scenario you’d be marketing (predominately) to other photographers. A superstar photographer isn’t necessarily the right strategy for you communication needs.
I’ll also argue that communication is not all about marketing. The costs of a communication strategy don’t necessarily have to be offset by increased revenue or donations. I have committed no resources to your organization, but I am now aware of it. That has value. I can now be sympathetic to your cause and might even assist it in an ancillary capacity.
Too many fail to realize the true value of communication. I don’t mean to imply that this is your case (I simply don’t know), but I have seen it in many NGOs. I think this is why Matt says that most NGOs don’t understand the true value of an image. I tend to agree with him.
What a fascinating stream of comments from your first post. Seems like this series of interviews has already found an engaged audience and tapped into the Zeitgesit, congratulations.
Here is my contribution – warts and all. First some context.
1. I think that there are increasing number of NGOs that would love to use a Matt Brandon or a Jeffrey Chapman image but struggle to find the right ways to sell the “value” of that over someone working pro bono.
2. The increasing sophistication of digital camera, with a lower price point, means an increasing number of competent photographers (Who may be not full time) available to work as a travel or humanitarian photographer – whether paid or not.
3. Social media has created new viral opportunities for getting a message to a wider audience quicker at a lower CPM (Cost per message) than before.
4. NGOS tend to be specialists in their subject but are not necessarily specialists in photography, while Photographers tend to be specialists in creating compelling images, but not necessarily in the NGO’s specialist field. Neither tend to be experts in Social Media. However all have some competency in each others field and all are looking to close any knowledge and competency gaps to become more self-sufficient
What this means is that there is considerable disruption to the traditional relationships between NGO and photographer that suggests we are entering a new evolution of the Humanitarian Client – Humanitarian Photographer relationship.
Value is in this web enabled, social media fueled economy is often misunderstood as being free. This after all is an economy driven by a generation that expect everything to work seamlessly with everything, and for all information to be available immediately and for free.
There is definitely a role to be played either through an organization such as the International Guild of Visual Peacemakers, or Focus For Humanity – a new foundation being launched very soon that works closely with IGVP – to help educate both parties and to explore new mechanisms where NGOs can get a more extensive return on the cost of an image (extensive in monetary, impact and social media reach), and photographer can help use key aspects of their network (Photo editors, affluent keen photographers that are not full time) to help drive increasing”Value” from their work and to be paid a fare wage for doing so.
I know that IGVP and Focus for Humanity (FFH) will help to support both underfunded NGOS with cash for assignments at market rates for existing humanitarian photographers, yet also support photographers looking to turn full time with grants for equipment or travel, digital marketing advice, mentoring support and other grants to ensure that they can deliver the levels of service increasingly required by NGOS. You will be able to check out more on this via http://www.focusforhumanity.org or @focushumanity. The website will launch around mid April 2010
Marco,
Focus for Humanity sounds really great, as a link between NGOs and Photographers. I’d love to hear more from you and this organization. I’m going to contact you and see if we can have a post about FFH.
Thanks.
Regarding photographers shooting for free/cheap. Right now at aphotoeditor.com there is a fascinating conversation happening among commercial photographers/photojournalists about this topic. I encourage everyone on this thread to give it a read and consider how it compares/contrasts to our situation as humanitarian photographers/clients. You can read it here: http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2010/03/11/stop-accepting-200-assignments/ Thanks Heber & Matt for starting this conversation.
[...] 1st interview was with Matt Brandon of The Digital Trekker.com. It was a great read and a fascinating discussion ensued. This Friday I get the honor of being interviewed on 10.Q. So check that out and bring your [...]